Conversation with a Christian Friend #2
May 26th, 2010 | 
Author: 
Below is a conversation that I had with a friend of mine recently who is a Christian. This is similar to another post that I have here in that I do not think that this person is a particularly good representative of the the best intellectual arguments. This person finds the basis for their whole reason for believing to be belief (faith) itself. On the other hand, even some of the best Christian apologists like William Lane Craig have said on numerous occasions that his primary reason for believing is the internal testimony of the holy spirit and faith.
The reason that I am posting this conversation here is simply to show what one of my main objections to the faith actually is and to use this conversation to illustrate this. This was not an email so what I put here is not an exact word for word recounting of the conversation but I believe that it is pretty close. I am going to refer to this person as Paul.
Jeff(me): One of the reasons that I am not a Christian any longer is that the more I researched the questions that I had, the worse the answers seemed to get. For instance, in the early centuries of the Christian church, the whole process and transmission of information was very messy. We don’t seem to know who wrote the gospels and the gospels of which are the only accounts of what Jesus did and said, were written 20 to 60 years after the events. There also seems to be more mistakes and problems in the manuscripts of the new testament the earlier that you get. Mix this with the historical inadequacies and contradictions within the Bible and I found that I had less and less to stake my faith on.
Paul: You see Jeff, that is part of the problem. I am not a Bible scholar but I know that I know that I know that the Christian faith is true and that Jesus is God and that he died for my sins so that I would not have to go to hell. I know these things by faith and not by doing historical research or using logical arguments.
Jeff: Yes, but how is it that you KNOW that your beliefs are true? Surely there are people out there who have a false faith and who think their faith is true. I assume that you don’t consider Mormons or Muslims to have true faith?
Paul: These things can only be known by faith Jeff. I don’t know everything but what I do know is that Jesus is my savior.
Jeff:How is it that you know this?
Paul:Because God has told me this in his word and his word cannot fail. I know that his word is true by faith.
Jeff:But how is it that you know what God’s word is in the first place? I mean, after all, there are plenty of people who claim to know what God says and there are different books out there which are supposed to be from God. How is it that you know that your book is from God and that those other books are not from God?
Paul: I know that this is hard for you to understand. In fact, God tells us that it will be hard for non believers to understand the things of God. Paul the apostle tells us this in Corinthians:
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned”
and also from the book of Hebrews:
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. ”
You are trying to understand these things by using reason and logic and God is saying that you can’t do it that way. You have to have faith or none of it makes sense.
Jeff: So are you saying that you don’t use history or logic or language to try to understand what God has said in His “word”?
Paul: I have God’s word and I understand it by faith.
Jeff: But the only way that you know anything at all about what God may or have may not said is because people have told you that the Bible is God’s word. Apart from that, even if you have faith, you wouldn’t know anything about God. Right?
Paul: Well the Bible says that God has made himself known to man through nature and that he has imprinted his laws on our hearts. That is how we know right from wrong. I can look at the heavens and see that they declare the glory of God. As King David once said in the Psalms:
” 1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard. [a]
4 Their voice [b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, ”
Jeff:I can see how that might be the case. However, what specifically does looking at nature actually tell you? I can look at nature and see a significant amount of evidence that shows me that the world and the universe as we know it has not always been this way and that over billions of years it has changed and morphed into what we have today. What does that tell me about God?
Paul: Well, we can see that the world is so intricately designed that the only conclusion that we can come to is that it was made by a designer. God has made this world so wonderful that we can live here safely whereas in most of the known universe, life could not survive one minute. This shows us that God loves us and wants to take care of us and has made this beautiful world for us to live in.
Jeff:Even if we grant for the sake of argument that the world is such a way that it could not possibly have come about by any other means than by an intelligent designer(and I don’t think that this is a necessary conclusion), what kind of designer is it? If the world only shows us THAT there was a designer but not WHO that designer is or what he/she/it is like, then are we any better off? For instance, it could be that some powerful being created this universe but that this being is evil. It could be that this evil being is just deceiving us. It could also be that the being created the world as it’s last dying act and that it no longer exists. It could also be that this being created the world but does not really get involved with it and could care less how we live. If we look at the way the world appears to be: cold, heartless, unforgiving, unjust, it would seem that the above possibilities of God actually make MORE sense then a God that was loving and just and good.
So how do we get from a designer to the Christian God?
Paul: God puts these convictions upon our hearts and we can either respond positively to him or we can reject him. When we reject him we harden our hearts and it makes it that much harder to see hear his voice. Paul the apostle tells us this in Romans chapter 1:
“20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse…
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. ”
Jeff:OK, so how do you know that you are not deceived or deceiving yourself? Isn’t it possible that you have in fact suppressed the truth in such a way that you do not even realize it?
Paul: I do not think that is possible. Because God has given me faith and has opened my eyes to see, I know for a fact that these things are true. I have seen this confirmed in too many ways to be able to ever deny it.
Jeff: But you do grant that there are people who THINK that they have true faith and who would answer just like you did, but who IN FACT have a false faith?
Paul:Yes
Jeff: So how should a person go about confirming that their faith experience is true?
Paul: By looking at the Bible to confirm their faith since the Bible is God’s revealed Word.
Jeff: But don’t they say the same thing about their religious book? Be it the Koran, The Book of Mormon or whatever?
Paul: Yes they do. However, they are not correct.
Jeff: And how is it that you know that they are not correct?
Paul: Because they disagree with the Bible.
Jeff: So, a person cannot know the Bible except by faith, but they can’t have true faith except it is consistent with the Bible?
Paul: Correct
Jeff: And you don’t see a problem there?
Paul: Not at all. I trust God.
Jeff: And you don’t think it would be wise to question your faith to make sure that it is in fact real?
Paul: I believe that to question my faith would be to show a distrust of God, therefore, questioning faith is the same as questioning God. And who are we to question God?
Jeff: But you would recommend that a Mormon question their faith?
Paul: Yes, of course. Because they are in a false religion.
Jeff: Thank you for your time. I can see that we are not going to get anywhere.
Similar Posts:
- Conversation With a Christian Friend
- How Christian Apologetics Refutes Itself
- Conversation with Hitler on Morality
- Why I Have Difficulty With Christianity
- Loving God by Distorting His Word
- Who Would You Rather Trust: God or Man?
- A Look At The Moral Argument for God: Part 2
Posted in Philosophy
2 Responses to “Conversation with a Christian Friend #2”
Leave a Reply
Jeff, I saw your name on a status comment from M*** R***** on facebook. I doubt you would remember me but I was and am a friend of G*** and C*** B*** and, ofcoure I knew *** fairly well and went to Cal. Murr. (we have since moved) I don’t believe, first of all, that had you been a regenerated believer, you could “leave Christianity” but, that aside, the argument put forth by “Paul” is inadequate. We should examine why we believe. There are documents from history and science that prove the accuracy of the Bible. As a start, have you read Josh McDowell’s extensive writings? Evidence that demands a verdict (both volumes). I’m sure you know who he is. He tried to disprove God and Christianity and, instead found irrefutable proofs (in his mind). It grieves me to hear of your struggles and ultimate abandonment. It must grieve your parents as well. I hope you find your way….it is not true that you cannot or should not ask questions. I’m sorry you were told that. Chuck Swindoll (I’m sure you know him as well) said; “If anyone tells you to check your brains at the door and just take it all on faith with no research or questioning….they are teaching heresy” Paul said to study….to be a Berean….keep searhing and I pray you find your answers….
Jan Among
Hi Jan,
I do remember you and it is good to hear from you. I appreciate your concern for me and thank you for taking the time to write a comment in here. I went ahead and blocked out the names of the individuals mentioned above for their own privacy. I don’t usually like to use people’s actual names without their permission since this is a public blog.
First, I wanted to say that I am glad that you agree that the person in my post called Paul was using bad arguments. Although I know a few Christians who do not reason like that, it is still a very common thing that I hear when i talk to people and that is why I posted it. From your comments, I would imagine that you believe that reason, logic and historical evidence is the best way to know the truth rather than going from a personal experience. Would you say that is true?
Second, I have read many of Josh McDowell’s books including Evidence that Demands a Verdict. I have also a great many other apologetics books such as Lee Stobel’s The Case for Christ, JP Moreland’s Scaling the Secular City and many others. Although McDowell’s writings are a little dated, many of the arguments found in them are still used today. The problems that I ran into were when I studied this material for myself over the years, it became apparent that there were many problems with early Christian writings and that many of the Christian apologists that I had read and believed for so long just did not represent the information accurately. Many of the arguments of McDowell and others concerning early Christian writings were VERY misleading and factually inaccurate and when I looked at the evidence myself, it was actually very weak in many ways.
Some examples of problems are:
- The four new testament gospels are not eye witnesses.
- The four new testament gospels are anonymous. We don’t know who wrote them for sure.
- There is major historical inaccuracies in the Old and New Testament
- There is major contradictions in both the old and new testaments
- We do not have any original manuscripts of the new testament and the closest copies that we have are 30 to 60 years after the events.
- The earlier the NT manuscripts, the more problems and contradictions that exist in them.
- It has been demonstrated that Christian apologists selectively pick and choose the evidence that most supports their case and overlook tons of evidence that does not support their case.
Here is a few articles to read if you are interested that go through some of the problems with Josh McDowell’s research and writings:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/beyond_born_again/chap5.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/
Here also is a review of Lee Stobel’s The Case for Christ and this will give you an idea of some of the problems that we are dealing with there as well.
http://www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm
I did not start reading material like the above articles until after I started to see big problems myself in Christian writings. Then as I began to look outside of the evangelical world, I found that scholars had been pointing out these kind of problems for the last 100 years but evangelicals largely ignore them. I also discovered that the “non-christian” scholars and writers seemed to be much more honest with the evidence then any of the Christians I had read.
I am still totally open on this subject and continue to read and interact with people on a regular basis about it. I am interested in what is actually true about the world and if the evidence shows that Christianity is true, then I want to believe it. I have just not found that to be the case as of yet.
I look forward to your reply. If you would like to continue this discussion privately via email I would be open to that as well.
Jeff